Make More Money with Non-Surgical — with Charles Boyd, MD

Make More Money with Non-Surgical — with Charles Boyd, MD

Hello, and welcome to Beauty and the Biz where we talk about the business and marketing side of plastic surgery, and how to make more money with non-surgical.

I’m your host, Catherine Maley, author of Your Aesthetic Practice – What your patients are saying, as well as consultant to plastic surgeons, to get them more patients and more profits. Now, today’s episode is called “Make More Money with Non-Surgical — with Charles Boyd, MD”.

When you look at your practice from a business point of view, sometimes the numbers will surprise you. 

They did for Dr. Charles Boyd, a board-certified facial plastic & reconstructive surgeon with practices in 3 locations in Birmingham, Ann Arbor and Detroit, Michigan, with a 4th out-of-state location in the works.

He used to do surgery 4 days/week in the hospital setting with others handling the business side. 

However, when he went into solo practice, he determined others could be revenue generators, while he focused more on the business side. 

That allowed him to cherry pick which surgical procedures he wanted to perform and on which patients, as well as grow his skincare sales from $2K to $30K/month.

⬇️ Click below to watch “Make More Money with Non-Surgical — with Charles Boyd, MD”

This Saturday’s video is an interview I did with Dr. Boyd, where he shared several practice-building strategies working well for him that could work for you too.

By the way, Dr. Boyd’s mentor gave him this advice and he has done well by it…

“If you are not the driver of change, you’ll be run over by it.”

Open Another Practice in a New Area and Make More Money with Non-Surgical — with Charles Boyd, MD


Make More Money with Non-surgical — with Charles Boyd, MD

Catherine Maley, MBA: Hello, everyone. And welcome to Beauty and the Biz, where we talk about the business and marketing side of plastic surgery and how to make more money with non-surgical. I’m your host, Catherine Maley, author of Your Aesthetic Practice — What your patients are saying, as well as consultant to plastic surgeons, to get them more patients and profits.

Now today’s guest is Dr. Charles Boyd. He’s a board-certified facial and reconstructive surgeon with practices in three locations. They’re in Birmingham and Ann Arbor, Michigan, and another location in Detroit. He’ll also discuss how to make more money with non-surgical.

Now, Dr. Boyd graduated from Harvard Medical School and the University of Michigan — Ross School of Business. He was on faculty at the University of Michigan for over 14 years, serving as the Assistant Professor in the departments of Dermatology and Otolaryngology.

Now Dr. Boyd specializes in surgical and nonsurgical, facial rejuvenation, including facelifts, bra, and eyelids, rhinoplasty, and necklaces. He has, uh, trained hundreds of physicians throughout the us and abroad on advanced injection techniques and is involved in several research studies. Now Dr. Boyd also believes in giving back.

He serves on the board of Bethany Kids, a nonprofit organization, providing healthcare to children in east Africa, and every year he volunteers for World Medical Missions to perform cleft lip and cleft palate surgeries for children in Kenya. I don’t even know how far away that is. We should talk about that, as well as how to make more money with non-surgical.

Dr. Boyd, welcome to Beauty and the Biz, it is a pleasure to have you.

Charles Boyd, MD: Great. It’s pleasure to be here. Thanks so much.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Sure. By the way, what kind of a flight is that to Kenya?

Charles Boyd, MD: Uh, it’s like, uh, 14 and a half hours. So, from Detroit, you fly to Amsterdam, which is about seven, then another seven plus to Nirobi and then we have an hour drive to where we do the surgery.

Catherine Maley, MBA: That’s a long trip, isn’t it?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yes. It’s little bit of jet lag. Yeah. Yeah.

Catherine Maley, MBA: So, um, I really want to start with your journey because you like many others were in the hospital setting and then for whatever reason, you went out on your own and you went out on your own big time, you went with. Not just one practice, but you’ve got three locations and make more money with non-surgical.

So please just fill us in on how you went from hospital to private practice to get to the point where you make more money with non-surgical.

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, that’s a, I think it’s a great, great question. And it’s so it’s one that I think so many young doctors I talked to or residents kind of wonder. So yeah, I did. After medical school, I had matriculate university of Michigan and did my residency and fellowship there.

I, um, They offered me a faculty position in both in facial plastics and in dermatology. And so, it was kind of a unique position that was created for me. And so that, you know, you feel special about that. And you know, when you go to generally go to these larger teaching hospitals to do your training, they want you to do academic medicine.

And so, I kind of followed that pathway. Um, For me, I really enjoy teaching residents and the interaction that you get and the collegial of being in the academic center, um, obviously it has is its challenges too, right? You don’t have a lot of control over really anything personnel, time, hours, any of those things.

And so. While I was at the university of Michigan. I started getting into some of the more hospital administrative type of things. So, I ended up doing an MBA at the raw school of business when I was, um, a faculty member at Michigan. And so then after that, that’s a two-year program and I became one of the associate chiefs of staff of the entire health system of the university of Michigan.

So, I was kind of on. Tracked. Um, but the one thing that I think the business school did for me was taught me to think a little bit differently. Um, you know, I think I always say in medicine, it’s, it’s a unique field in that you can advance up the ranks and have absolutely no people skills, no social. Skills, particularly as a surgeon, right?

You can be, have none of that. In fact, antisocial skills and then be the chair of the department, because you’re a good surgeon or because you’re a good researcher. And so, you know, after business school, I kind of got that itch about being able to control my own environment. And I kind of had a transition.

I was a full-time faculty member for five years and then kind of part-time after that. But so, there was a large multispecialty group in the area. And at the time they were only primary care physicians, but it may have been. Close to a hundred physicians. So like OB internal medicine and I think pediatrics.

And so, they wanted to recruit me as a first surgeon and specialist into their group. And so, I built this skin care center for them. And the thought was that, you know, it’s a big referral group. I could do the surgeries and refer back and forth. So, we built that center and really toward my second year. Um, I found that it wasn’t a best fit for me.

Again, it was LA a lot of administrative control and not the control that I wanted and needed. And so that’s when I branched out on my own. And that was in 2009 and which was. A great time to branch out on your own. Right? So, it was in the recession in a suburb of Detroit. And so, I always say I started practice in the worst state, the worst economy, worst economy.

yeah. And, um, because the auto industry was all going down, but we kind of grew that practice and then I opened my second and then the third and so. It was something I wouldn’t trade for the world. Um, but I will tell you that, um, people do it one of two ways. I think you either, um, some people are pulled to it and that some people are kind of kicked into it or fall into it or forced into it.

Um, I was probably more the latter, right. I just knew I had to get out and do something different. Um, it was probably the most stressful time in my life. You know, another fun fact. I have five children, five daughters.

Catherine Maley, MBA: I saw it on Instagram and I was thinking, oh, he doesn’t really have five daughters. Those must be some of their friends.

Charles Boyd, MD: So, I, you know, I’ll be working forever. Um, but yeah, so that was a time where it’s pretty stressful, right? Where you’re starting new practice. I was in a completely new area. Um, I didn’t know. I knew maybe one patient. In that area that was coming to me and then you just have to hustle, right? You have to work and you have to believe in your craft and in yourself.

And, you know, with such a large family, I couldn’t afford to fail. So, you have to succeed.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Dear Lord. Now, did you grow up in the area?

Charles Boyd, MD: I did. Like I grew up in east Lansing, Michigan, so I was there from, I wasn’t born in Michigan, but from about fourth grade on, I lived in Michigan.

Catherine Maley, MBA: So how did you get started?

Because I would think everyone knew you as. Kind of reconstructive or, um, or not thinking of about us cosmetic, did you jump right into cosmetic at that point or were you still trying to demo everything?

Charles Boyd, MD: No, I was so even at University of Michigan, I was kind of half and half. I was doing maybe half cosmetic and half reconstructive and particularly.

That derm piece was because I was doing MOS surgery. So, I was trained in MOS and that was pretty unique as well. And that was one of the main reasons that I, you know, the reasons that I stayed at the university was that there aren’t very many non-dermatologists that get that type of training. Um, but the beauty of the AC of academics.

So no, another question is why would you ever go into academics? Is that. If you really want to do just cosmetic and reconstructive, you can do it where it’s pretty hard starting out. Um, just on your own open, putting up a shingle and growing the practice, even though I ended up doing that anyway, but by then I was.

Kind of had established somewhat of a name and a reputation. So, I think that transition was a little easier.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Now, how helpful was it to prepare you to be able to make more money with non-surgical? I personally got an MBA to help you doctors, because I knew you had the surgical side down. I knew you didn’t have. The other side down at all the business side, the people skills, the management, the leadership.

So that’s what I was doing while you were, you know, learning the other trade. So, for you to have both, that’s brilliant. Um, how helpful was it to take those business skills with you to pride and practice? And would you recommend. Others do the same who are trying to make more money with non-surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. Uh, a thousand percent, you know, I think that I was called, I, I think, you know, I affectionately say that, you know, we, doctors are the smartest people with the worst business skills known to man.

Um, and I think it is just because, you know, when you’re in college and you’re in school, you know, people that are pre-med are generally some of the smartest people around. Right. So, you have to go through all those organic chemistries. Biochem science classes. And I know at least when I went to school, some of my friends had ended up on the business school track.

They weren’t the smartest people around and they were, you know, they probably went out more and, you know, hung out more than I did. And so, when you finish, you just assume that well, because I’m smart and I’m a good surgeon that I. You know, manage my stock portfolio and now Bitcoin, and all these other things that we have to manage now.

And so, I think we end up making bad decisions because we, you know, we’re typically capitalized. So, people say, okay, well here, I’ve got this great ocean front property in Iowa for you. And we say, yeah, that sounds great. I think the main thing business school did for me at least is really, it was the exposure to other fields, other people, I, you know, one of the things that I’ve always valued from that experience and even growing up was that, um, You know, successful people.

You can learn something from no matter what they do. So, if you can surround yourself by around successful people, even if their field is 180 degrees different than what you do, there’s always a valuable lesson to learn there.

Catherine Maley, MBA: So, looking back now, what would you say to others who are in that position where they’re in the hospital (or want to make more money with non-surgical)?

They’re they know they’re feeling funny. They, they don’t think they want to be there. Um, they know that the grass could be green or elsewhere. Um, any words of wisdom to help them either jump. Or prepare for it or do it at all and make more money with non-surgical

Charles Boyd, MD: I think it, I think there are, um, a lot of key learnings, you know, for me, one of the things that’s happened even over the last 10 years has been.

Um, so I told you when I joined that multi-specialty group, I was the first surgeon in that group and some of my colleagues. That were like, I have a good friend. That’s an orthopedic surgeon that was in a private practice group and they were, you know, saying, well, why did you join this group? And I was, you know, saying I had this opportunity to grow and it was this nice transition.

Um, And then when I left that big multi-specialty group took off. So, they started buying all these practices. In fact, they bought my friends private practice, and, and now I think a lot of them are miserable because it is hard. Right. And it’s hard in this managed care environment. To really negotiate it. Um, you know, fortunately when I, I don’t really have to deal with the managed care environment.

So, it’s a little bit of a, a buffer between what many physicians are going through right now. But back to your original question, in terms of the advice I would give, I would say definitely talk to people that have done it. Um, you need to really. Think about where you’re going, what you’re doing. I think the there’s always change that’s happening.

And so even, even what we experience today will be different five years from now. Uh, one of my professors. Actually, in business school used to always say that, you know, if you’re not the driver of change, you’re bound to be run over by it. And so, I think you always have to look ahead and think ahead and try to be on top of those trends.


Catherine Maley, MBA: And I would say no, they self, if you don’t want to manage people or understand business or work with an accountant or legal, if you are not interested in that, you either better find somebody else who is who’s your right hand. Whom you trust, you know, more than anybody and let them run it, but someone’s going to have to run the business side of surgery and too many surgeons still want to hide out in the, or which I totally get.

I mean, don’t, we all, like business would be a lot easier if we didn’t have to manage it, which would potentially allow you to make more money with non-surgical.

Charles Boyd, MD: I would say that what you just said was so important. So, my first and I knew for a fact that, um, in, again, going back now 13 years, um, when I opened this practice, um, I was, you know, so I was seeing patients here.

I was kind of flying different parts of the country doing, you know, treating people there and doing whatever I could to kind of grow and, um, Keep the lights on. And I knew that I needed a really trustworthy manager and I think that’s the most important thing. So, I actually called my mother out of retirement, who had been a manager for, I don’t know her whole career.

And she was actually my first office manager. And even though she knew nothing on the medical side, I knew I could obviously trust her implicitly. And so, all the things and payroll and HR and. Things that none of us like to do. And it’s probably the hardest part of the job. You need someone that can do that and knows that aspect of the business.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Isn’t that the truth? So, anybody who’s got a mom I would definitely bring them into business (especially if you’re thinking you want to make more money with non-surgical). The wife is the next one, but that can sometimes go sideways. So, um, your mom is probably your best bet.

Charles Boyd, MD: Mom over wife for sure.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Yeah. and your mother is your mother’s beautiful. I saw her on Instagram. She’s gorgeous.

Charles Boyd, MD: There’s been plenty of, um, like bad experiences that I know people have had where, you know, it’s just issues that come up. Yes.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, that’s life. Uh, so what possessed you to open three different locations. Was it to make more money with non-surgical? And is there a big scheme, a big plan in place to grow more? Or are you good with three? Or how how’s that going?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. Um, we do have a plan. There’s a fourth one coming actually, uh, in the works, uh, actually out. State. So yeah, has really to boost my frequent flyer miles.

Catherine Maley, MBA: I gave up traveling for now until they calm down and figure that out. I’m grounded.

Charles Boyd, MD: um, I would say the plan was, um, You know, it definitely helps with economies of scale. You know, I think that’s one of the main things.

Um, you know, I think one of the things that I was very intentional about with my office and each office subsequently was really the size of them. Um, some of the things that when I was looking to start my private practice, um, there was a surgeon not too far from me that was, um, either closing or moving his office.

And so, a broker took me by there. To see it. And it was, it was huge, right. Had like fountains and, you know, unicorns and things like that. And so, this huge space really beautiful, but the actual revenue generating part of the office was really small. And so, I would say that’s a, that’s a mistake that many surgeons make or many doctors make in that you have this particularly plastic surgeons, because you do want a certain look and a certain Pana to your office, but you still need these exam rooms and that’s really how you generate revenues.

So, I try to keep a smaller footprint and then each office has been about the.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Okay. I did notice, um, on Instagram you have an office that looks like it’s on a main street. Yes. Is that true? Does it help you to make more money with non-surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yes, actually I have, all of them are pretty much on a main street. So, my first office is really in downtown Birmingham, Michigan, which is a suburb and it’s probably one, it’s probably the highest socioeconomic area in Michigan.

So, it’s a retail street. In the heart of the, um, city. And so that certainly is a, is a great way of advertising, um, because the name is right on the, in the door. I mean, in the building and it’s associated with. Downtown Birmingham. So, I think those are always great opportunities as opposed to being in a high rise on the sixth floor in the back of the building.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Now I’ve seen that go both ways in some areas. Um, I don’t know if it’s because like, let’s say it was a med spa. Um, I have seen them fail, but I’m not sure if it was just the, the population would not go into the mainstream and like let everyone know they were going to a med spa or maybe it just wasn’t managed whether it was able to make more money with non-surgical.

I I’m not sure. But have you had any issues with people saying, do you have a back door?

Charles Boyd, MD: Well, we do have a backdoor. So, for sure, I would say have a backdoor. Um, and interesting enough, this space was a me spa before. And so, it was a failed med spa that I ended up taking over. Um, you know, the med spas are everywhere now.

And, and so I think that you definitely need a brag door for privacy. I think that one of the things that we did do is we kind of. Um, blinds. So, you can’t really see into, so you can see someone walk in, but we have retail area right there. So, you could be buying skincare, you could be doing something else.

So, it’s not obvious when you walk in or out of the building. And then in the back of the building, there is a back door, the little parking lot.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Okay. So, let’s talk about staff because typically that’s the biggest challenge when you want to make more money with non-surgical, or maybe it’s not for you, but how are you managing? Cause you’ve got a lot of moving parts.

Three locations. I don’t know. Are you going location to location? Like how is your time divvied up? And who’s managing all these people.

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. So, I have, I have an office manager. That’s been with me my current one over 10 years. So, you know, my mother did it for, yeah. She, so she didn’t start out as my office manager, but she was there even when my mother was managing, my mother did it for maybe four years.

Right. Which was that really important time? Um, And so, yeah, my office, manager’s been with me over 10 years and I think that’s one of the keys to success is having long term employees. Um, there are the nature of this business, uh, does not lend itself towards that because it’s mostly younger women that are of the age to get married and to get pregnant and to move away or.

Go to different places. And so, I think that’s super important. Um, the, um, I’m personally in the first office most of the time, so I’m there minimum three days a week. And then the other two offices. I’m there about two days a month. So, every other Thursday or Friday I’ll travel. In the meantime, I have, um, mid-levels in those two offices, are there every day, estheticians and mid-levels in those offices.

Catherine Maley, MBA: So, let ask about the estheticians in regards to being able to make more money with non-surgical, because that is a, um, double edged sword institutions can be helpful. To attract that let’s say, um, lower-level patient. Who’s still kind of dipping their toe in the cosmetic world and they just want a little facial or microdermabrasion. They’re getting used to it. Like personally.

That’s how I got involved in this. When I was, I don’t know, 40 years old, I started with microdermabrasion and I have progressed on quite, quite dramatically, but, um, is that the point to use them as feeders to start at the lower rung and work their way up and is every. Is the goal to get them into surgery with you?

Or are the institutions working out for you? Because I’ve heard lots of different stories about —

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, I have, um, I’ve been fortunate in that I have, um, Some of both. So, one of my estheticians, actually my esthetician that’s been actually with me also 10 years does incredibly well. And so, she, you know, they are, um, is very personality driven.

You know, I will say that. And so, this particular esthetician and I’ll, I’ll contrast her with another one, but this particular esthetician sees the. Number of patients annually, but, uh, it generates the most revenue. And so, she does larger ticket items, like, um, cool sculpting and M sculpt and some of these bigger tickets.

And so, she’s the type that, um, if I have a high net worth individual, You know, she’s the one that connects with that patient. And so she was, uh, I believe she had gone to architecture school or something else and then kind of fell in love with skincare. And so, there is that rapport that she has with patients and that trust.

And so, she’s done extremely well. Um, I have other estheticians that see double the number of patients and. Do far less revenue, because they’re just doing mostly facials. Um, I, I see them as, um, important part of the practice in that. Um, we don’t do just a facial. That’s not a medical facial, but um, most patients like that type of treatment as well, and many of them will go other places for it.

And so, I think if you can keep the patients within your practice, there’s definitely. Fit to that. And so that being said, the estheticians are probably the highest turnover. Not probably, they are the highest turnover positions in the office that I’ve had estheticians and, and receptionists. Right.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Um, sometimes I, I think, you know what, instead of having an, an esthetician take up the room for an hour for minimal, you know, um, get a really good nurse injector, who’s just killer, uh, at lasers and injectables.

And that room becomes what, five to 10 times more profitable, even if you make more money with non-surgical. Um, but I don’t think there’s any one way to do this, you know, as long as I think though, the estheticians, I don’t think their goal should be to do more facialists I think it should be to move people up the ladder and definitely arrows pointing to you.

Like are, do you still, um, do a lot of surgery or do you feel like you’re going cause on Instagram it looks like you’re more nonsurgical almost at this point. Like where are you going with surgical versus nonsurgical, and how is that helping you to make more money with non-surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, I would say that. It it’s about 60, 40 now. So non-surgical to surgical. Um, and that was, that’s been, I would say when I first started, it was probably 70% surgery and then, um, 30% non-surgical or maybe even more, um, that transition probably happened.

Let’s see, for two reasons. So. Started getting other offices, um, that kind of led to that. And as I started, you know, I do a lot of teaching and things for some of the companies and training all over the country and nationally and internationally. And so, I think that’s led to that as well. Um, I, I think that it is.

That kind of gets into the know yourself that you said at the beginning. I think that, um, when I was first came here and I was at the university, I literally operated four or five days, four, the five days a week, you know, always in the, or, um, but at the same time, I didn’t have to manage. Anything or anyone else.

Right. So, every, all of that was taken care of, and even the patients were taken care of. Cause I had residents and other folks to do that. Um, you know, when you’re doing that as a solo practitioner, it’s an entirely different, um, kind of. Ball game. And so that for me, kind of led to that transition. So now I get to do the surgeries I want to do.

So, it’s a lot of blephs, plasti, and facelifts are kind of the things I enjoy. Um, and so that’s been probably the most of what I do. And so those, um, and then I, because I can schedule, when I do them, I can schedule them around my time. And if I’m traveling or.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Right. Um, and another question about, um, products.

You have a lot of skincare products. You have an online store. Is there a lot of emphasis on products? How is that helping to make more money with non-surgical? I I’m so torn with products because as a consultant, I would, if I were consulting with you, what I, I would ask you to pull out report revenues by procedures. The skincare is always, maybe 1%, you know, maybe.

And then, then I go, well, gosh, I mean, if it’s only 1%, should we put our focus there? Like, what is, where is that going? So, what do you, what I’m, I’m torn on it. I, I just don’t know. What do you feel about that?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, I would say that that was a key learning for, um, that we had. And so, um, I would say one of the things that, um, I learned from some of my dermatology colleagues around the country.

And, and certainly they put much more emphasis on skincare than we generally do as surgeons. And so, um, when I first started getting into skincare, it was literally just dipping my toe in. And if we did $2,000 a month, In skincare. We were happy. Now at the same time, I was like a black diamond account. So, we were had a lot of patients turning over and a lot of patients going through, but we didn’t emphasize it.

I never emphasized it. Um, and I had one of my Durham colleagues kind of, you know, I just said, so what are you doing? And how do you do it? And like that same office we do. Close to 20 to 30,000 a month. Oh, very nice. So, it’s but it’s been a, it’s been a much, you know, we, there are a lot of things that led to that.

So, you know, the, um, you know, my staff, my medical assistants and estheticians are all incentivized. You know, we have, um, cards that we talk to that have like Dr. Boy’s favorite products. So, it’s, it’s an emphasis that wasn’t there before. Um, and there’s been some studies that have shown that particularly after surgery, after even injectables patients spend an average of like $800 on skin.

Somewhere. And so, we were like, well, why not spend it here? And you know, all the products are ones that have been tested and ones that I can have confidence in that actually are doing something. So, I used to be the same one. I used to call skincare. Lotions potions and notions. Uh, and so I think those that’s changing as well.

And there’s ways you can do it. I think if you’re just advice, like, even if you’re doing a facelift, you can bundle the packages. And a lot of patients really like this idea of prepping their skin for surgery. So, there’s some things you can do beforehand and things you can do afterwards. And then that kind of gets them thinking about them.

Catherine Maley, MBA: For sure. Well, especially if you’re going to invest that much in a facelift, um, it’s about time. You actually think about, you know, uh, 24, 7 coverage. Um, so many people just, you know, just, um, punish their skin forever and then they do that one big. Okay. I’ll just get a facelift and wipe it away.

Charles Boyd, MD: You know, they think that’s going to fix everything.

I would say the analogy I like to give is like, if I were your cardiothoracic surgeon and I did your bypass, and then afterwards, I don’t tell you, you need to change your diet. So just like your facelift or your laser, you need to do something differently with your skin to kind of, kind of protect that in.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Well, my analogy is, I mean, most of us, a lot of us take care of our bodies. You know, we exercise and we, um, eat, right. So why wouldn’t we take care of our skin? You know, we take care of everything else. You know, we take care of our houses and I just thought skin makes little, well, I think it’s a big deal.

So, I’m with you on that one. Um, so give one of the biggest mistakes you have made in business from running you. That others could learn from, or that you learned from and how that’s impacted your focus to make more money with non-surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. Um, I would say things you invest in would be the, would be the thing. So, you know, for me, I think diversifying your revenue sources is always important, even as a surgeon, even as a physician.

And so, I would say one, um, crazy venture that I got into, um, it was another physician that actually told me about it, but. Physician who, um, an ophthalmologist friend of mine who said, yeah, this guy has this great new laser business that removes pain. Like it’s one of these lasers that if you have shoulder pain, you know, you can treat it.

And so, I met with a guy and he was like, yeah, we have these. Kind of franchisable services. And so, for me, I kind of looked into it actually tried it, it worked fairly well, but, um, and so I kind of invested in one of these, you know, I had a little office, not in my own office, but a separate thing, and I was going to do some other treatments that we don’t typically do in my office.

Like. And nutrition and things like that, but it was a big failure. Um, partly because I wasn’t really there to manage it. You know, I had someone else managing it. It’s out of my wheelhouse. And so, I would say that would be a, a mistake not to make that. People could learn from, you know, I think it’s, it’s okay to have different offshoots of what you do, but it should be something that, you know, and you love and you want to dedicate the time and energy to make it successful.

Catherine Maley, MBA: My recommendation would find something that your current patients. As an add on they’re already, they’ve got, you know, they like know and trust you, so they’re already great, which will help you expand so you can potentially make more money with non-surgical. What else can you do to help them out? It’s not such a huge jump because I would think that was a whole different demographic.

You know, it’s a different type of patient, like somebody in pain versus this is the fun side of medicine. So.

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, yes and no, in some ways, because like, you know, and I guess you can justify everything. But for me, the reason I even thought about it was that, you know, I say that we’re in the aging business, right?

And so, we’re in the reversing aging business, treating aging and so pain and chronic pain is certainly associated with aging and getting older. And so, the whole reason it came up was. You know, I think I had a patient that came into the office was like, yeah, I’ve got this shoulder pain or hip pain or my knee pain.

And if I could really eliminate that, that would really make my life different. And so that’s kind of how I, I thought about the business, but its kind of the, and, and to be honest with you, you know, there’s a, one of the other franchisees that. Still, I’m friends with he is running that business and doing well, but it was just so different than mine that the economics are different.

The margin was different, that it just wasn’t worth, worth it to keep going.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Well, you, that sounds so bad. I mean, it didn’t break you, right. You learned from it, which has helped with your focus to make more money with non-surgical.

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. And you definitely learned right. Right.

Catherine Maley, MBA: All right. So, let’s shift from business to marketing and how that’s helping you to make more money with non-surgical. Um, the, the issue for you with marketing is you’re, you’ve got the mature aging face patient who is usually a female older, um, just has different beliefs and backgrounds and attitudes than the young rhino patient.

Yes. And I’ve always wondered how in the world do you market to both of them at the same time. So, any tips and tricks for that one?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. Um, I would say the, um, it it’s a challenge for sure. Right? Because they are completely different, um, demographics. And that was one of the things that my second office kind of helped me with.

So, it’s actually really, my third office is the one, but. My fair office, which is in downtown Detroit, the demographic in that office is completely different than like my Birmingham or my Ann Arbor office. So, it’s, that was kind of Quicken loans and that’s a big business there. That’s Dan Gilbert and they, I think they’re one of the largest, uh, employers of college graduate.

In the state. So, a lot of millennials are in that area. I have a, an amazing, uh, nurse injector that is in that office and she is literally the lip queen. So, she just does lips and does an amazing job and is all over social media and kind of promoting it. And so that office, if you walked in. And sat in the lobby is completely different than the Birmingham office.

And so, what we do just in terms of advertising, we have a, you know, a global Instagram page. And so, we’re able to feature different aspects of those different things, but, you know, the millennial patients. Do gravitate toward that office and toward that provider. Um, and so I think that that’s one of the things I think, otherwise marketing, certainly your methods of marketing will target different, different demographics.

So generally, you. Your aging faces. Patients may not be on TikTok. They may, but that may trend a little younger Instagram trend, a little younger Facebook tend trends a little bit older, obviously. And so that’s another way to look at kind of target different demographics.

Catherine Maley, MBA: So where would you say a lot of your revenues are coming from?

Is it the younger rhino patient? Is it the older aging face? Is it nonsurgical? Surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, I would say I don’t have the numbers off the top of my head, but I would say certainly the nonsurgical is probably the largest right now, just in terms of numbers and, and you know, one of the calculations you can do is, and I think it’s important to do EV as a surgeon is procedure value per hour.

So that’s basically. For those that don’t know. So even if you look at a facelift, you know, let’s say you do a, you do a facelift and you know, you may or may not charge a consultation fee, you know, we do. But so, they come in the consultation fee, you go through their facelift consult. Generally, we might see them again for another visit or an and P there’s no charge there.

You do the procedure. So, you get. You recognize a revenue there and then the subsequent visits follow up, SU your removal, all the other things generally do not generate revenue unless they’re doing a new treatment. And so, then the question is when you add up those hours and the revenue, what is that procedure?

Given you, so that’s a number that’s calculable. And then if you look at some of the non-injectable or the injectables, uh, nonsurgical injectables, um, many times they beat some of the surgical procedures that you do, not all of them, but I think it’s a. Good number to run in your individual practice. The same thing on the aesthetician side, you mentioned like, so we don’t do hour long facials and things like that because it’s not a good use of the room.

And so, there’s ways that you can run all those numbers. And I think that’s, um, what a smart consultant or office manager can do for your practice.

Catherine Maley, MBA: So, regarding the procedures, there’s also other elements to be considered such as, do you like that type of a patient? Um, is it going to be a pain in the neck if things don’t go well, like, let’s say you get one of those, um, rhinoplasty, real tough patients that are just never going to be happy, which can impact whether you can make more money with non-surgical.

Um, is it the kind of patient who’s going to tell all their friends or tell nobody? Um, is there a lot of. Um, just handholding, you know, is there the hassle factor? So, I like to look at all of that. Um, just more real, um, realistically, because I’ve noticed as surgeons get older, they also have less tolerance or aggravation, you know?

So, do you find that, that there are certain patient types of patients that you just don’t want to work with anymore? You know?

Charles Boyd, MD: Sure. For sure. I think there’s certain. Um, patients, there’s certain procedures that lend toward that. You know, I think probably rhinoplasty being number one, you know, I think it’s number one.

I think it’s the hardest procedure to do well. Um, and how it always says how it looks at year one, year five is different. Year 15 is different than that. And it is one of the it’s one of those procedures that I’ve seen completely sane, rational patients. Flip. And so that’s something you need to know about kind of going into it.

And you’re absolutely right. And, you know, I I’ve limit that aspect of my practice really because of that, you know, I, I enjoy it and it’s some of the most satisfying work, but you get one bad apple and it does spoil the bunch and it can, you know, make your day, not that pleasant.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Right. So, what’s your competition like in the Midwest?

Are, are you surrounded by other competitors and how is that affecting your ability to make more money with non-surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. You know, this area where I am is, you know, there’s a lot of competition, a lot is probably, I don’t know, 10 plastic surgeons or dermatologists, but that could walk to their offices and, and see. Uh, and so, yeah, it’s, it’s high competition. Um, and that’s not to mention the met spas and all the other places that are.

Around, we’ve been kind of blessed in terms of done well, and we’ve been kind of top of the food chain, which has been good. And I think that, um, the main thing is the quality of your work. So, you know, do good quality work and, and then, um, It’s really that relationship. It’s all relationship based. Uh, you had mentioned before your personality, I think your personality and not intelligence, but your EQ, your emotional intelligence is probably the.

BI one of the biggest success factors for a practice. I always say that, um, you know, if I had a superpower, it is, um, I generally know what my patients want or need, even if they don’t. And so, if you can produce that, then you have a happy patient. And so that, I think that’s something that was very helpful to me. Um, I think in this practice.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Well, you probably got that from having five daughters. You’re surrounded by Michigan for heaven’s sake. You must it’s expensive this.

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, I got that in exceedingly, uh, long patience. Oh, good for you, patience.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Yeah. So, regarding, um, differentiating yourself from the competitors in order for you to be able to make more money with non-surgical. I have noticed you’re doing a very good job on Instagram.

A couple things you’re doing, you have that silhouette, um, And you’re positioning it perfectly for, you know what, it’s not for everybody, you know, it’s for people who aren’t ready for surgery, yet they need a little something. Um, and it looks like you’re like an expert at that and that, um, uh, what’s called, um, Silicon incision, um, removal.

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Yeah. Um, you’re also like, um, and you have a patient on Instagram saying, you know what, I’ve been to many doctors and nobody will do it. And because you’re the expert on it. And that really like as a patient. Like I saw you then as an expert, you know, so was that done by purpose?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, not initially, I would say, um, meaning that there, you know, we, where I live, where we are in Michigan, there’s a large, there’s a population in Dearborn and that’s, I think the largest middle Eastern population outside the middle east.

And there are. Were several, some were nurses, some were not even physicians that were doing these silicone injections on the lips. And then the face and many times the patients didn’t know what they were getting. They were just, you know, they thought they were getting a regular filler and they got these, um, just deformities of their face.

And so, it, it happened initially just out of just trying to help them and be more, um, you. I think just more helpful. You know, I know a lot of patients, not just patients, but some of my colleagues won’t touch those patients because it’s exceedingly difficult. And they say, when you deal with someone else’s complication, it now becomes your complication.

But it was in some ways, almost like the clef lip and clef palate, right. There was some, you know, this deformity and if you have the ability to help, then you. And so, and then through word of mouth, it just got to be, uh, where it just kind of spread and more and more patients started coming in kind of requesting it and needing it really.

And so, some of the stories are super compelling and just breaks your heart. I’ve seen people have had it injected in their. Eyes and tear troughs. And sometimes there’s nothing you can do to really because you can’t really eliminate it. You know, you’re just removing as much as you can.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Great. Um, so back to the marketing and how that’s helping you to be able to make more money with non-surgical, are there different marketing channels?

Now? I know you’re doing a good job on social media. Um, actually you’re doing a very good job. You have a nice blend of personality plus. Um, kind of, uh, brand positioning, you know, you have a nice mix there, are you doing that on your own? Is somebody in the background, uh, making all that happen? Like you have a whole social media team, how are you managing that so that you can make more money with non-surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, so I have, um, an employee in my office that does the Instagram and social media. And so, we monitor the, kind of the, all the insights and we. Look at all of those on a minimally, a weekly basis in terms of what’s trending. What’s not. And so, Instagram, TikTok, those type of things. Um, I think it’s super important to have, I mean, I’ve done it all.

I’ve been at this a while, so I’ve had. Where I did it myself. I’ve had people that you hire that come into your office. Um, for us that never really worked out that well, some of them charged astronomical fees and really all of the magic all the before and afters are in the office. And you have to have someone that’s.

They are to capture those. Uh, you definitely need someone that’s creative that can think about these things. And that is literally looking at TikTok, looking at Instagram, see, what’s trending, what are the trending sounds? And so, I think that takes dedication. Um, and just because someone. Personal Instagram is great, or they have a lot of followers.

Doesn’t mean they can do that for you. And I always say that when you look at someone’s Instagram, you can generally tell if the person that’s doing it kind of is really invested in it or loves what they do versus it’s their job. Right.

Catherine Maley, MBA: And, um, you have somebody who’s really good at video editing and you’ve got the music down, you know, and yeah.

So good job.

Charles Boyd, MD: And my dance moves.

Catherine Maley, MBA: You’re, you’re, you’re moving. You could have some moves. I mean, if you have them use them, you know? Um, so what about the influencers? I’ve noticed that you even on your website, literally call out the influencers and say, Hey, I’d love to work with you. So let me. Has that worked out well?

Or what do you think so you can make more money with non-surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, I think, I think that’s a, um, again, a lot of learnings on that aspect as well. Um, that can be really good or really bad for you. Um, mm-hmm yeah. Um, it, it works out poorly when obviously. Because of the services we do, it attracts a lot of influencers. So, influencers contact us all the time saying, Hey, I’m an influencer, I’ve got so many followers.

And, you know, I would like some free treatment and then I’ll post a story. So, we don’t do that. Um, you know, because. I always say that I know what the value of whatever treatment I give to them. So, if he, if he did even Botox, you can say, well, that’s $500 in value. I don’t really know the value of their post.

So, them posting, it could be maybe all of their followers are in other countries or maybe they’re all men, or maybe they’re not patients that are coming into your office. So, you have to look at all of those insights around. The influencer. So, we let them pretty well. So that’s just a way that we can vet them.

Um, on the other hand, one of the I’ve had great success with some influencers, some local influencers, um, one of which didn’t have that many followers, but if she posted something in the office, we would get. 20 patients would come in for that treatment. And so, we would have a, we would put on a link that said, okay, say it’s K 25 and you come in and then we could monitor it.

And so that’s part of the, you know, one of the. Things, you know, we learn in business school is that if you’re not measuring it, you’re not market. You know, if you can’t measure it, then you’re not really doing good marketing. So absolutely.

Catherine Maley, MBA: And quantity does not always be quality because if you can get, I’ve done that forever.

Like I live I’m in San Francisco and I used to do events for doctors and they were like, oh, but like we only had a hundred people. Are you kidding? Those are a hundred people who live. Yeah, that they’re actually going to come see you, you know? Yeah. We don’t need you to know the world. Yeah. I, I, I’ve always struggled with that.

I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re right on with that. If you can get 20 people to react to somebody locally, um, there you go. That’s a way to run this thing so that you can make more money with non-surgical.

Charles Boyd, MD: That’s a win. Yes.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Yeah. So, any pearls about social media and how that’s helping you to make more money with non-surgical? Um, especially if you don’t have dance moves. What, what works well for you? And how much time are you spending on it?

Charles Boyd, MD: Um, well, like I said, I have a dedicated social media person now, and so we will do, um, so she and I meet every week where we just look at, um, kind of how we did from the previous weeks. Um, so I meet with my dedicated social media person. I also. An office meeting where I meet with kind of my leadership team.

So that’s my office manager, my head nurse, myself, and we are then looking at the entire business. Um, I think that’s important to those times. You need to not, um, just work in the business, but look at the business kind of as a whole. And, and we also look at social media. In that aspect. And so, we always say there’s three pillars to business, right?

There’s the there’s operations. So that’s your day to day. How are things working? You’ve got finance and then you’ve got marketing, right? How do you get people in, you know, once they come in, how do you manage it? And then how do you kind of navigate them when they’re in your office? And so, I spent at least.

Probably two hours a week, I would say on marketing and social marketing, you know, every week. And so, I think it’s important to dedicate the time to it. It used to be when I first started, you know, was print ads and we would say, well, you have to do a print ad and. Patients have to see it six times before you get a return.

And it’s so different now in terms of social media, where you can see almost an instant return or not. And so, I think it’s about spending that time. So, I think that’s something that’s super important.

Catherine Maley, MBA: So, this, um, fourth office that you’re opening out of state in a new area. How far out of state?

Charles Boyd, MD: Um, it’s about an hour.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Okay. So, what is the plan? Because I can’t tell, are you just kind of going to like skim the surface or are you trying to build like patient retention where you have a patient for a. And build those relationships. Like what’s your philosophy there so that you can make more money with non-surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. I, I would say the latter. It’s definitely been, you know, I, we were just looking, um, I have patients that have been with me for over 15 years, actually.

So almost from when I started. And so, I think that is, I would say another really important Pearl. Um, you want to. You know, the lifetime value of a patient is really the key. And so that means sometimes you forego things that aren’t for that patient, because it’s really the trust and that experience that you’re giving to the patient that’s most important.

So, for me, even the, um, Different offices has been also a part of developing the brand, but part of the brand and the brand values were just, you know, the, we use for, for Boyd. We say beauty, optimism, youth and dignity. And so, it it’s, it’s really about that trust. And so. We found that all the in interesting enough, that came out of interviewing patients.

And so, we say, well, why do you come to boy? You know, some people say, well, you know, for beauty, I want to look better and other people to feel better. That’s the optimism. And the youth is to look more useful. And the dignity part, you know, that that was maybe the clef lib. Maybe it’s a silicone. Maybe it’s just being treated like you’re special.

And so, I think those. Those are the things that lead to that lifetime patient.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Nice. So, is there going to be a location number five and six and on and on? Or what do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good for you. OK. Um, let’s up now? And if any words of wisdom that you haven’t covered already, would you say to somebody, I mean, just someone who’s in their practice they’re okay.

But they’re not they’re okay. They like, they want it to up level. Any words of wisdom to do that so others too can make more money with non-surgical?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. Um, I would say, how do you up level, I would say the most important thing is probably training. You know, I think that, I think that one of the things that, um, I think one of the reasons we go into medicine.

Is that you can always learn. There’s always something new. There are always different ways that you can do things differently. And so, um, when I was, when I do a lot of teaching and training throughout the country, I always say that I learn as much as I’m teaching. And so. I think that that is probably the most important thing, you know, too many times.

I think we get set in our ways and we think it’s our way is the best way. And I think it’s always room to learn room to improve. And so, you need to be humble enough to accept that. And then, um, and then kind of go on to improve your skills and your skill sets.

Catherine Maley, MBA: I have noticed I’ve, um, done some talks on this, like the, like what the top docs are doing differently than the others.

And a really big one is that growth’s mindset to be able to make more money with non-surgical. They’re not stuck and they’re not stale. They’re always staying open to what’s happening. What’s new. What do I need to adapt to? Um, I’ve noticed that, that, that level of learning, I guess it is, or I guess it is, you know, loving to learn and grow.

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. Yeah. You have to be the driver of change. So, you don’t get run over by it.

Catherine Maley, MBA: I know that I’m going to, I’m going to use that by the way. Um, so are any of your five getting ready?

Charles Boyd, MD: Just gimme credit.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Are any of your five daughters following in your footsteps?

Charles Boyd, MD: No. No, no, no. Um, I have, uh, two, my oldest is kind of doing her PhD, so she was a math and English double major.

Um, I’ve got two in tech, one works for Google. One works for meta and I have two in college.

Catherine Maley, MBA: So, but none, no, no physicians as of yet, no too bad. They could have been your new management team.

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Nice that what it still, one of them still says she’ll she just might manage, wants to manage me.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Tell us something we don’t know about you that’s very interesting and how that relates to being able to make more money with non-surgical.

Charles Boyd, MD: Ooh. Something that you don’t know about me. That’s very interesting. Um, okay. Let’s see. I’m a, I’m a big car enthusiast, so I just got back, um, So I just did this, uh, racing course. There’s a Porsche racing driving course in Birmingham, Alabama. So, I’ve done the, the level, the master level. And so, yeah, so that’s a, that’s a big hobby of mine.

Catherine Maley, MBA: How fast did you go?

Charles Boyd, MD: Uh, probably 130 maybe

Catherine Maley, MBA: There is an adrenaline rush for you. Yeah. Yeah. Could you have been hurt?

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Catherine Maley, MBA: Yeah. I mean, you, surgeons are very careful. They don’t do things like, uh, you know, even snow skiing and like, and you you’re doing that all.

Charles Boyd, MD: Yeah. Well, skiing. Yeah, I don’t do that, but, um, we have the driving thing.

You know, I, for as long as I’m controlling the road in the car, then I’m good. Right.

Catherine Maley, MBA: All right. Well, thank you so much for the great discussion on how to make more money with non-surgical And anybody, if you want to, um, reach out to Dr. Boyd, his website is Um, it’s a really nice website, um, and his Instagram is in good shape. So, I would definitely take a look and, and talk to him.

If you’re thinking about making a career move of some sort, um, he sounds like a great resource, right?

Charles Boyd, MD: I’m happy to talk. Yeah.

Catherine Maley, MBA: All right. Thank you so much.

Charles Boyd, MD: I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay. Thanks everybody. We are going to wrap it up now for Beauty and the Biz. A big thanks to Charles Boyd, MD for sharing his insight what it takes to make more money with non-surgical.

And if you have any questions or feedback for me, you can go ahead and leave them at my website at, or you can certainly DM me on Instagram @CatherineMaleyMBA.

If you’ve enjoyed this episode on Beauty and the Biz, please head over to Apple Podcasts and give me a review and subscribe to Beauty and the Biz so you don’t miss any episodes. And of course, please share this with your staff and colleagues.

And we will talk to you again soon. Take care.

-End transcript for the “Make More Money with Non-Surgical — with Charles Boyd, MD” Podcast.


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